Qantas, what a joke

[max]

Max you oaf! Its IT JOBS not Call Centre going offshore!
Get it right! You probably meant that though, didn't you?

[XA Coupsta]

Originally Posted by flappist

Then came the revolution. Cheap fares means less income. Less income means cost cutting.

I disagree strongly.

Cheap fares mean less income. Not entirely true. Look at how full the flights can be - they are selling a lot of 'cheap' fares!!!! Besides revenue management ensures not all airfares are cheap.

But even if so - it doesnt matter does it? Lower cost base means they can have lower incomes but this does not mean quality on maintenance/safety issues is therefore compromised.

Virgin brought to the market brand new planes, at prices never seen before. This is negative?

It then has a flow on effect that the competition (Ansett collapsed actually - but anyone remember their fleet being grounded one boxing day I think due to safety concerns?!) has to keep up with their fleet. Well what do you know Qantas AND Jetstar purchase and lease brand new planes to fly.

So again - people are now flying on BRAND new acraft that simply never operated before - for cheaper than ever before?!!!!

I fail to see this in a negative light.

Your other points - seat pitch. So what I say. QF has a bad pitch anyway - they just got the public relations jump on the others.

Virgin (for example) have won numerous service awards. Cant see how service has actually dropped. As for crew per flight - well all this is controlled by CASA. If its that unsafe why would they allow it?

Prove your maintenance reduction claims. Again CASA regulated so dont blame the airline. Surely they are allowed differing maintenance requirements due to fleet age as per my point above. They are brand new acraft!

Tech crew requirements - well I'll have to take your word on that as I cannot prove/disprove otherwise. All I'll add is im sceptical to that claim.

One thing you are right about is Jetstar taking over regional routes. Nice work Qantas - they reamed you for years and show their loyalty by stripping out their services to a lower cost base so they can make even more money off you for less service(s)!!

I dunno bout you but that angers me that Qantas do that.

And back to the thread topic - the relocation of jobs offshore.

Add it to the entire picture of Qantas creating Jetstar (lower cost base, union busting vehicle), reducing services across their network (why? oh yeh to make more money), they will change staff awards via Jetstar - which will be pushed onto QF mainline staff, they are now sourcing/basing more cabin crews in offshore locations (surprise, to save money), their CEO/directors/board members continue to be paid exorbitant salaries/bonuses/superannuations - NOW add it to the offshoring of jobs (lets not forget heavy maintenance) - to me the big picture is Qantas is in the wrong in a lot of areas. Not just 300 IT jobs to India.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XA Coupsta

I disagree strongly.

Cheap fares mean less income. Not entirely true. Look at how full the flights can be - they are selling a lot of 'cheap' fares!!!! Besides revenue management ensures not all airfares are cheap.

But even if so - it doesnt matter does it? Lower cost base means they can have lower incomes but this does not mean quality on maintenance/safety issues is therefore compromised.

Virgin brought to the market brand new planes, at prices never seen before. This is negative?

The only second hand planes I can remember QF aquiring other than those from subs such as Aus, Sunnies, Southern, Eastern, Nopulse etc were a couple of 767-300s from BA to get over a short term problems at the time.
The era about which I was refering was before QF was allowed to carry domestic traffic.

Originally Posted by xa coupsta

It then has a flow on effect that the competition (Ansett collapsed actually - but anyone remember their fleet being grounded one boxing day I think due to safety concerns?!) has to keep up with their fleet. Well what do you know Qantas AND Jetstar purchase and lease brand new planes to fly.

So again - people are now flying on BRAND new acraft that simply never operated before - for cheaper than ever before?!!!!

I fail to see this in a negative light.

Your other points - seat pitch. So what I say. QF has a bad pitch anyway - they just got the public relations jump on the others.

Virgin (for example) have won numerous service awards. Cant see how service has actually dropped. As for crew per flight - well all this is controlled by CASA. If its that unsafe why would they allow it?

CASA only control safety issues. The maintenance that has been reduced is the cleaning and general housekeeping etc.

As far as shiny new planes, you really do believe the marketing hype don't you. Yes they are new and will be so until the first flight. Now they are old. Why has VB not bought any new ones this week???

Originally Posted by xa coupsta

Prove your maintenance reduction claims. Again CASA regulated so dont blame the airline. Surely they are allowed differing maintenance requirements due to fleet age as per my point above. They are brand new acraft!

Tech crew requirements - well I'll have to take your word on that as I cannot prove/disprove otherwise. All I'll add is im sceptical to that claim.

My info comes from senior pilots in most of the operators. The maintenance is always legal just always the minimum. e.g. I change the tyres on my car before they are totally illegal, I don't need to but I just feel safer doing it.

Years ago I was involved in the aviation industry, I still keep in contact. There is a huge shortage of pilots in this country. VB & Jetstar are taking all the turbine jockeys leaving the turbine operators sifting through the low time CPLs. People I learned to fly with are now command on heavys, in the case of some of these this is VERY VERY scary.

Originally Posted by xa coupsta

One thing you are right about is Jetstar taking over regional routes. Nice work Qantas - they reamed you for years and show their loyalty by stripping out their services to a lower cost base so they can make even more money off you for less service(s)!!

I dunno bout you but that angers me that Qantas do that.

And back to the thread topic - the relocation of jobs offshore.

Add it to the entire picture of Qantas creating Jetstar (lower cost base, union busting vehicle), reducing services across their network (why? oh yeh to make more money), they will change staff awards via Jetstar - which will be pushed onto QF mainline staff, they are now sourcing/basing more cabin crews in offshore locations (surprise, to save money), their CEO/directors/board members continue to be paid exorbitant salaries/bonuses/superannuations - NOW add it to the offshoring of jobs (lets not forget heavy maintenance) - to me the big picture is Qantas is in the wrong in a lot of areas. Not just 300 IT jobs to India.

Yep we do agree here.

[frost]

Ok, I work for qantas/ibm lets get some facts right

Ofshore work is not going to be call centres, so staff support, ticketing sales ect all stay in australia as we have been told "qantas is a customer service airline"

I work mainframe support, mobile support, flight delay support and other bullshit problems support for qantas under an IBM contract.


IBM > Manage Main frames, qantas training systems
Telstra> Novell, Desktop Support, Fileservers (Windows), Lotus Notes

We are all staying in australia, whats going over seas is

2nd level support, so the people we have to speak to, so basically qantas many years ago had all in house IT, then they contracted out, to IBM/Telstra/Amaedus. BUT anything qantas made its self like Qube, HR, Intranet, Booking systems all stayed in house. Basically, Qantas is getting rid of their whole Inhouse IT department, so any qantas made programs will be supported by overseas, so basically, people like myself, xr8chic and other qantas/ibm/telstra staff will have to deal with overseas when things break. We are first point of contact for qantas staff with computer/main frame issues. Then its upto us to contact the 2nd level support overseas.

IBM are doing the same thing, our 2nd level support is called Systems Control, Telstra's is Network control. So our at the end of next month, we will be contacting India when high importance issues happen in qantas systems as they are 2nd level.

Qantas is making a mistake sending them overseas but the reason the mistake is being made, is because companys like IBM and Telstra have ****** up with their previous contracts so when the the tenders go out and IBM and Telstra bid on them, when they look at their previous history they pick who ever cost them less money.

So at the end of the day how does this effect the end user. Well not much when it comes to speaking to australians on the phone. But it will start effecting you when a major qantas system breaks and they cant fix it in time and it causes a massive number of flight delays. It cost Qantas $350 odd dollars a minute a plane is delayed in australia, it costs up near the $1000 mark when delayed in USA so yeah.

Any questions feel free to ask

[XCMUZ]

This in response to OLD MATEs comment. How the hell do you expect QANTAS to have the capacity to do all maintenance onshore if the continue to close maintenance lines? What planet have you been livng on. The reason you bozos in brisbane wont get the 330 maintenance is because it takes 60 days to do a SC4check on OGD. We used to do a SC4 with a strut mod in 31-34 days in Sydney. As for the quality of your checks I wouldnt boast to anyone about it! Floorboards not screwed down, skin pins left in stringer repairs, fried LRU,s cos equipment cooling was left off, Dinitrol being sprayed over the top if bilge blankets, MEC being hosed out by the cleaners and the list goes on and on.... The things are turning into 707,s. They sit there soooo long they forget what they are supposed to do. That dim wit you have running the show up there, well you would have been better off smashing that guitar of his over his head while he was in line 2 in Sydney. What do you have to say about avalon, back in 96 the managers assured us it was only an "overflow facility" and that Sydney heavy would continue unabated. To further cut cos quality and turntime (Check your strategy map im sure you have one in the centre of exelence)We approached management about trying to be more efficient, but were continually stonewalled. Oh and line 2 had to go because Hangar 96 was coming down. Wel I reckon it only a matter of time until you are outsourced or turned into a 3rd party MRO with chinese style working conditions and check quality. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys, unfortunately you can teach monkeys to fly aircraft but you cant teach them how to fix em!

[frost]

I feel sorry for qantas matenice staff, we have to deal with with some over seas matenience staff all the time....

heres one for you best comments iv herd ever


"xxxxx, were still a customer airline" - was a comment from a manager to a worked who wouldnt foward someone on another flight for free

"i'm forstaff, a subdiery of qantas, paid less, more work and they cut my staff travel" - a engeering staff member i met a dragfag

[frost]

By the way were talking about safety and security, the minute someone mentions safetly or secuirty on the phone its all ears

[old_mate]

XCMUZ you have PM. Didnt need to go into so much detail in public.

But i'll continue on...

The other things you mentioned not discussed in my PM i havent heard about, only those I have spoke about I was involved with. You are obviously still a little hurt about Sydney shutting down. Look bro, im not happy it happened. It put me out of work too mate, fact is it was always too expensive there (LAME to AME ratio too high for a start). Avalon should never have taken it over, big shout out to the ALAEA, CEPU and all those other morons on that one.

Perhaps Brisbane will shut down. The big money is it wont, not until the end of the 767 program anyway. And if it does, I wont be there to worry about it as Im out of the game in four weeks anyway to bigger, greener pastures.

Turn time has nothing to do with the A330 decision. David Cox has told us to get our cost per billable hour down, we are trending towards that target (3 to 4 dollars away now). A330 MRTT project is still being discussed, would be setup in Hangar 1


And to clarify a few other points raised



VH OEB, OEC and OED are 2nd hand 747-400's bought by QF from two asian airlines. VH ZXA-ZXG are leased from British Airways. Qantas have an ageing international fleet, apart from the 400ERs, the A330's and the domestic 737NG's. You would have to be in the industry to know what implications come out of having maintenance done O/S.

Forstaff dudes get paid the same hourly rate, they just have less entitlements such as staff travel. AFAIK forstaff owns forstaff, they have a partnership with QF. The contractors I work with here (not FORSTAFF) get paid twice the hourly rate than me, but work for a flat hourly rate. No annual leave, no overtime, no shift penalties. They all seem to love it though.


this is about the third big thread on Qantas and aussie jobs (i started one) and in the future i think im going to stay out of it. I do get some amusement upon reading some of the claims made in these threads though hahaha

[frost]

Originally Posted by old_mate

this is about the third big thread on Qantas and aussie jobs (i started one) and in the future i think im going to stay out of it. I do get some amusement upon reading some of the claims made in these threads though hahaha

Hope your claiming at the people who dont work for qantas, i clearly stated where the IT jobs are going.

To be honest, it might be a benifit moving the majority of the jobs overseas for IT based work, qantas employeed IT people are slack and fail to meet SLA's but they are easy to talk to.

BTW you would be suprised about half the **** thats already ran over in india like EQ, or Altera and Amadues run in Germany.

Maybe its not about an IT shortage in Australia at the end of the day maybe its just IT specilists charge way to much

[old_mate]

^absolutley not aimed at you lol. I didnt realise there were so many steps in the IT game. I just ring people disconnect or that other self centre number when things break and thats about as far as i get into it

glad to see your not heading to India

[chevypower]

my father used to travel from Melb to Sydney a lot in the 80s and early 90s for work, he said flights used to cost around $800 - the price is one tenth of that now. efficiency and supporting the global economy is a good thing, people all over the world should be given the chance for work, and we certainly dont mind reaping the benfits of cheaper air travel. Just consider the fact that fuel prices are much higher than they were 10-15 yrs ago too. If it cant be done efficiently in Australia, then the work should be exported, and we should be brought here and sold globally. That's whats happening anyway, any company trying to resist it is going to miss out.

[frost]

Id hate to tell you this but alot of qantas is already outsourced, essipply overseas operations.

Freqent Flyer help desk is outsorced in melbourne
IT support is outsourced to IBM/Telstra/Sonnet
Regional Airports are outsorces to AaE, Nothen air, macair, airnz, BA, AA
Secuirty is outsorced
Secuirty hardware is outsourced
TVs and Equipment around the concorses are outsorced
Freight overseas all outsorced
Airports overseas all outsorced

Currently not outsorced
HR
Staff Travel
Ticketsales Centres

So theres a fair **** load of outsorcing

[Outbackjack]

You know, the more I think about it the more I reckon that ALL Australian jobs that can be done O/S for a buck fifty an hour should be sent off shore. That would be fantastic. The saving to every Australian would be awsome. Just imagine a qantas 747 fully maintained by chinese aircraft mechanics, crewed by Korean air crew with Thai hosties. We could all fly any place we like for $49.95. Wouldn't that awsome!! And our car industry, we could sent the whole thing to Korea, I am sure we could all buy a new car for 5K !! All the ports could be manned by Phillipino wharfies, god knows all those Aussie wharfies are all nothing but theiving bludgers, like the rest of Australian workers. And I hear that chinese plumbers will work for $5.50 per hour. We could all have gold plated plumbing, made in Taiwan with Australian gold that was dug up by an American multi national corporation.

And we know that all our clothes and shoes are already made in chinese sweat shops. And clothes are just sooo cheap and the quality is out standing. And lets not forget our favourite foot wear, nike, these are dirt cheap now that they are chirned out in china. But wait they will soon be even cheaper, Africa is shaping up as the new mecca of cheap labor!! I cant wait.

We could all become company directors and polititions, the perks would be awsome!! All the "little" jobs could be done by low paid, hard working immigrants that would be for ever grateful just to have a job!!

Now that our new future is well on its way I think that I will pull my kids out of school now, what good is an education when all the jobs are OS. And you dont need to be particulary bright to be a politition or company director.

What was that song again...... yeah that's it, the futures so bright I need to wear shades!!!

I cant wait, I am just soooo exited. :

[frost]

Just because they are asians, whats the problem, Qantas is an outstanding airline... Remember Qantas own Jetstar so basically your saying Domestically you will fly virgin and internationally you will fly an "ASAIN" airline when all the crew and tech staff and management are "ASAINS" i see logic in that :S

[XA Coupsta]

So outback jack - im having trouble wading through your sarcasm to uncover your point?.......

[MO]

Originally Posted by XA Coupsta

So outback jack - im having trouble wading through your sarcasm to uncover your point?.......

Its quite simple really he's had a talk with the PM and learned that the one millionth IWA was signed today.

Unfortunately he could'nt sway the PM on the new IR laws.

And the fact that the PM has just relegated Oz to third world status....think about it, everything aligns itself to the lowest common denominator.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by XA Coupsta

So outback jack - im having trouble wading through your sarcasm to uncover your point?.......

Really??? It is called looking at the future. I dont see a bright one for our kids or the people in this country that have only their loyalty and honest labor to offer a prospective employer. Take a long hard look around you. Farmers around Mildura last year buried tons and tons of oranges, while most Aussies stuffed their faces with pretty, but tastless, Californian oranges. Many of the orchads have been bull dozed. Many trees were 20 to 30 years old. The farmers of the area are doing it tough...... But who cares, the import companies made some money as did the American farmers that are subsidised by the US government. I have a problem. Its a deep personal one. You see, I care about people. Especially the working folk that deserve better than the current government policies. If we are all doing so well under Johhny, why are we all so desperate to only buy at bargain prices??

And given Johhnies big grinning face today, attending the 1 milionth (SP?) signing of an AWA (I bet this poor old bastard was hand picked) I can asume that he can bank on all their votes next election. Because, you see, they are all so very much better off now!!!! And ever so happy and secure!! Frankly guys I am slowly loosing faith in this country. I am lucky that I will never loose my job to some curry muncher. MO knows why, and I know that he has the good sence not to say why on a public forum. So I am not just sperting on about nothing. I am not getting at you XA Coupsta. I really wish that all these Howard lovers would just look past their own personall wealth and well being and spend just 5 minutes a day thinking about the people in this country that really matter, and thst is, and I will say it again, the average worker that nothing but their loyality, and labor to offer. They are being screwed big time.
I always have a laugh at some of the johnny lovers on forums. They seem to think that his (Johnies) policies are for other people. Thet are too valuable to ever be subject to his draconion policies..... chuckle, chuckle. They will learn!! And I will have a chuckle, but feel sorry for them at the same time......

Cheers all.

[flappist]

Aviation teaches us many important things.

Left wings are very important as they balance the right wing but regardless of how important the left wing thinks it is or how much it thinks that IT is doing all the flying, or at least should be, and must be treated as special the truth of the matter is that if the left wing had total control the aircraft would flip upside down and flat spin into the ground.

This is also probably true of the right wing but seems to be demonstrated less often.

I have, however, noticed that the left wing is ALWAYS noisier than the right.
This might be because, as the pilot, I sit in the lefthand front seat and am therefore closer, but then again it might not........

[Work Horse]

Sorry Outbackjack, but you have to go straight to North Korean to live, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

There is no middle ground in this...... apparently

It's "Johhnies" way or the highway.

There is no place for people, when they get in the way of profits.

Just keep pouring money in at the top and it will filter down to the rest of us eventually.

I'll stop because I can not match your sarcasm.

Nice work :sm_headba

flappist, I think the wings make the same amount of noise. The right wing bothers you less because you like the noise, you're clearly sitting in the wrong seat :

[gozza]

The plane analogy is forfeited becuase the pilot is actually controlling the ailerons.....

Is society the pilot?

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Just keep pouring money in at the top and it will filter down to the rest of us eventually.

Yes, this is a right wing theory. They tried it in NZ under the right wing Bolger Government. Funny, it didn't seem to work. It would seem that companies were very reluctant to share their wealth those that they needed to create the wealth. And Mr Bolger sculked off into the back ground with out finishing his term...... But our beloved little Johnny knows better.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I dont see a bright one for our kids or the people in this country that have only their loyalty and honest labor to offer a prospective employer.

These are the people you fight on behalf of? The people who have exerted no effort, allocated no resources to developing a recongised skill or trade? The people who demand their country owes them a living? The people who think that it's the goverments job to force a company to pay them more than what their labour is worth?

I too see a bleak future for our kids if their primary source of advice in life is telling them not to bother developing a skill, because the NANNY STATE will look after their every grievance.

The same future where those that WANT to specialise, develop skills, get a trade (or, shock horror.... a degree... so long as someone doesnt convince them that such behaviour is unaustralian... "we dont like tall poppies in this county, lad") are held back by an unproductive workforce?

Mate of course i care about my fellow countrymen. Just because im conservative, it doesnt make me heartless. But i'll be damned if im going to support an ideology which rewards a lack of personal responsibility. Anyone in this country can make as much money as they want (or seek happiness by whatver measure they choose). But if someone chooses to go through life with no skills, and expect a "good living" to be handed to them on a plate... i'll be damned if im going to let the left blame their inevitable struggle on me.

If people have NOTHING but loyalty and labour to offer then dont act suprised if they wind up on the scrap heap. They'll have no one to blame but themselves.

Take a long hard look around you. Farmers around Mildura last year buried tons and tons of oranges, while most Aussies stuffed their faces with pretty, but tastless, Californian oranges. Many of the orchads have been bull dozed. Many trees were 20 to 30 years old. The farmers of the area are doing it tough...... But who cares, the import companies made some money as did the American farmers that are subsidised by the US government.

Dont even get me started on farmers.

And given Johhnies big grinning face today, attending the 1 milionth (SP?) signing of an AWA (I bet this poor old bastard was hand picked) I can asume that he can bank on all their votes next election. Because, you see, they are all so very much better off now!!!! And ever so happy and secure!!

Yes it must sicken you. It must really put a bee under your bonnet. To think... that someone is HAPPILY WORKING AWAY under their new AWA.

"But... but... but... i know better than the guy who is actually working under that agreement! AWA's are nothing more than a tool for the right to screw the worker!"

Get over it. The wheels are falling off your campaign of scare tactics. A million people working away under these agreements and nothing more than a handful of examples where an employer has tried to screw the workers over.

1 million people. But of course, outbackjack knows better!

JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY WE ARE WORSE OFF UNDER WORKCHOICES, DOESNT MAKE IT SO.

I really wish that all these Howard lovers would just look past their own personall wealth and well being and spend just 5 minutes a day thinking about the people in this country that really matter, and thst is, and I will say it again, the average worker that nothing but their loyality, and labor to offer. They are being screwed big time.

Well, i wouldnt say i was a howard lover. But it's pretty obvious where i'm numbering the boxes under the line.

For the record, im currently smack bang on the AWE. Personal wealth? My assets read no further than a broken down falcon and a ratty old celica. Im just as much a battler as the next person.

BUT ive invested a significant amount of my own time and my own money (no silver spoon here, sunshine) to DEVELOP A SKILL that will hopefully allow me to feed and clothe myself as the years go by.

And every single Australian has the opportunity to develop a skill. Every single Australian can get an apprenticeship, a degree, a tech certificate... the list goes on.

"Oh, but i dont want to"

Well then deal with the consequences.

Seriously. TELL ME WHERE THE PROBLEM IS.

We've been under this bloke's leadership for long enough now. If there was going to be a problem, it would have come to fruition.

We're earning more than we ever have. More people are working than ever have before. If you lose your job, the government will provide for you whilst you find another job. If you break your leg, the government will pay for it to be fixed.

Your criticisms are nothing more than speculations, which, based on the recent prosperity of our country, are completely unfounded. But this is the way of the left, is it not?

You ever read the boy who cried wolf?

[Outbackjack]

It seems to me Mr 4.9 that you have lots of growing up to do.

Have a great life.

[XA Coupsta]

Hmmm.......*sitting scratching my chin in deep reflection*........

Great post 4.9 EF Futura.

Hopefully this thread wont get too political and get locked is my only wish.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

It seems to me Mr 4.9 that you have lots of growing up to do.

Have a great life.

And outbackjack rides out of town in the same manner in which he rode in.

[GreenMachine]

Political threads make my head hurt... Wasn't this about thread about airline safety or something?

I'm sick of seeing workchoices argued out on AFF - If you like it, keep voting for Howard and she'll be right, if you don't, head on over to http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/community/index.php and push the barrow. Simple.

[Outbackjack]

You sais this Mr 4.9.....

These are the people you fight on behalf of? The people who have exerted no effort, allocated no resources to developing a recongised skill or trade? The people who demand their country owes them a living? The people who think that it's the goverments job to force a company to pay them more than what their labour is worth?

There are many reasons, social, economic, cultural, personal, why some people get left behind. You have displayed your right wing agenda by this statement. Hence, it would appear, you have little or no life experience. The rest of you input was not worth more than a fleeting glimse, once you totally discredited your self my this statement.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Yes, this is a right wing theory. They tried it in NZ under the right wing Bolger Government. Funny, it didn't seem to work. It would seem that companies were very reluctant to share their wealth those that they needed to create the wealth. And Mr Bolger sculked off into the back ground with out finishing his term...... But our beloved little Johnny knows better.

The reassuring thing on that front is that if you look over the last 10 years, the ratio of incomes earned by the highest against those earned by the lowest has not expanded. In fact there has been a contraction which indicates that the argument that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer is not valid in relation to Australia over the last 10 years, of which all have been served under a 'right wing' Coalition.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by RPO83

The reassuring thing on that front is that if you look over the last 10 years, the ratio of incomes earned by the highest against those earned by the lowest has not expanded. In fact there has been a contraction which indicates that the argument that the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer is not valid in relation to Australia over the last 10 years, of which all have been served under a 'right wing' Coalition.

Care to show some proof here?
I see it the other way round by a big margin..

[GreenMachine]

OK, I'll weigh in...

Sure, 4.9's statement seems pretty confronting - **** 'em all, etc. But really: Is anyone owed a living? I'd argue not. The government's role is not to save those who won't save themselves.

I'd argue that the current government's agenda has gone overboard, as would a lot of people who voted for Howard and would do so again.

But my point again: The government is not the issue. Yes, they've made it harder to enforce a higher wage for yourself. But there are plenty of people out there who ARE willing to work to keep their wages and conditions above the bare minimum. Whilst a government can legislate to make it easier for individual contracts to exist, easier for dismissals to happen, the power ultimately is still in the hands of those out there doing the work.

I admire your sentiments, Outback and agree to a certain extent, but I'd offer the following comments:

1) AFF IS NOT THE PLACE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION (Hypocritical, I know, but I'll stop if everyone else will)
2) AFF IS NOT THE PLACE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION
3) Bashing away at the percieved "right wing" is not helping anyone. You have a position. They have a position. Do you think that repeatedly telling them that their ideas suck will result in flappist and 4.9 waking up tomorrow and joining the ALP?
4) AFF IS NOT THE PLACE TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION

Cheers all,

Nick
FBT owner, ZH Fairlane Owner, Random Opinion Holder.